46 Comments on “Why Opinion Changed So Fast on Gay Marriage”
I regret to say it, but I had a conservative and religious upbringing, and the thing that shifted my thinking on the LGBT marriage issue was when George Takei came out , and started lending his voice to the issue as a response to Prop 8 in California.
I know Cakeshop didn't have a ruling when this video came out, but Kennedy made it very clear in his statement that not having to make a cake that makes a political/moral statement does not mean that you can discriminate against same-sex people or couples with your service. Basically you don't have to make a gay wedding cake, but you do have to fulfill their order if you would do that same order for another paying customer.
Ginburg's dissent acknowledged that he's coming from the side of anti-discrimination, but claimed that it still counted as discrimination because they wanted a wedding cake, not a "gay wedding" cake, and that was one of the bakery's services (unlike a cake that had an anti-gay statement and bible verse on it, which it had been ruled earlier by the appeal court that the baker did not have to make it).
I don't understand why anyone wants to get married, but well… Also, if a government can add rights to one group without restricting anothers why wouldn't it do so?
From the 1970s to the 2010s, the median Age in the US was increasing at a rate of about two years per decade. It's currently only about half that rate. I think that plays a small role as well.
So wonderful, thank God I was born gay
Visibility has always been the greatest ally and champion of gays.
I don't support gay marriage not because I'm homophobic but because I don't support marriage in general
In my opinion the video is too strongly focused on the situation in the US. Certain European countries legalized gay marriage around the same time. The Netherlands in 2001, Belgium in 2003, Spain in 2005. I could imagine that these events also gave hope to activists in the US beyond the regulations of single states. So I think the roots of this social change lies much deeper than the video talks about.
Children come to view their parent's religion as not worth the bother.
It moved so fast because of the Internet.
There is one huge elephant in the room that is not addressed in this video – George W Bush.
Supporting SSM was a way of opposing George Bush and the Republicans – Republicans were, almost en masse (I can't think of a single Republican politician who supports SSM, but there might have been one somewhere), opposed to SSM. So SSM activists smartly placed SSM in the anti-Republican movement, where opposing the war in Iraq and the War on Terror and the Republicans in general meant supporting SSM. It was a topic that was already building – you showed a clip of Will and Grace from 2000, and my own young adulthood in the 1990's showed a majority of the college educated folk were at the very least not opposed to homosexuality (acceptance wasn't high, but outright opposition dropped in the 90's). A vast majority of us were thinking "Why does this matter? Let them marry, doesn't do anything to hurt me."
But if Al Gore had been President? There probably wouldn't have been a great push for SSM as it took until the 2010's for a majority of Democrats to be willing to support SSM. Obama is infamous for having his views on SSM "evolve" after he got into office… and public support became pro-SSM instead of anti-SSM. Without the definite and ever-present need to oppose the GOP, many of us might have decided SSM was something we could give away in negotiations. "Well, the GOP want X and Y, we want Q and SSM, we really don't want Y and the GOP really doesn't want SSM. So how about we offer to drop SSM if they drop Y?" "Yeah, okay, that works. We'll support Q, you support X, we'll drop U, you drop SSM, and we pass this bill. All good?" "All good – flip you for who pays for drinks tonight!"
The celerity with which social attitudes have changed on this issue gives a very interesting insight into group psychology. After all, the time when homosexuality was tied with mortifying shame, not just for the person in question but for family and associates as well, is still in living memory. By the '90s we had reached the "not that there's anything wrong with it" stage, but issues like marriage and adoption lagged behind. At this point, though, those issues could be openly debated, but the majority opinion got to claim the moral high ground and counter pro-gay arguments with thinly-veiled sneers. Those advocating gay rights had to tread softly and reason with a calm voice. Now, however, the majority opinion is for gay rights to marry, and this majority now gets to claim the moral high ground – and anyone who still clings to the old ways are treated with open contempt and hostility. Like it's suddenly unthinkable, now, that people could ever have been opposed to gay marriage. Yet they forget that most of their allies were opposed, just a short while ago. So they should know how it is possible to argue against gay rights. But the moral high ground does something to people – with it comes the risk of turning into malicious assholes.
Interracial marriage was illegal in Aus? Learn something new about my country every day.
This was posted the day before Gays could marry anywhere in the US.
Hey gay bros and gals, just saying fuck Trump and his Nazis in 2018. Gay folks are da best. Sincerely, a straight midwestern male who didn't fall for the propaganda xd
At 1:18, please someone clarify for me on which side of the debate is the cast of Will & Grace stands….
I know this video is super old, but your comments about how public opinion changed after the ads changed to emphasis family reminds me of your video on all in the family, where the audience, and edith, came around to accepting her cousin's lover as family because she mentioned marriage, and being a family.
Homosexuality has been there since evolution and dey say it's unnatural!
There’s no point in marriage whether you’re straight or bent, financial entanglement is all it offers.
Don't let the government get involved in your business
Closed minded homophobes: Gay is bad.
Also closed minded homophobes: goes to adult video store and looks for “two lesbians lesbianing” – – Closed minded homophobes: I don’t want gay couples on tv because I don’t want my son to think he can be gay
Me, an open minded straight person that thinks it’s none of my fucking business: * with sarcasm* yeah and I don’t want black people on tv cause I don’t want my kids to think they can be black.
Closed minded homophobes: but black people are born black, they have no choice.
Me again: Yes exactly, so why do you think tv will “turn your kids gay”? – – Closed minded homophobe: Homosexuality is unatural.
Me: But they have no choice and it is a lifestyle decided by fate. So it is natural. ~ ~ ~ Just a couple of counter arguments for those closed minded assholes who think they matter in the desires of other people. Listen up idiots. No one gives a shit about you, so go home to your mothers basement and be an asshole some more, and we can just mind ourselves, and be modern, non nosy, civilized people.
Btw: for those people who are all it’s a sin to the Christ. Well then let’s hope assholism isn’t a sin because you’d never leave hell.
prop 8 was the first time I became active in the community, I remember some lady chasing me down the street because I took her "Yes on prop 8" sign lol Hey I was 17 what can I say. Since then the organizing bug bit me hard and I haven't looked back kids its super important to remain active in your communities some people don't know what's going on and while you shouldn't rush someone with facts you should be open to educating someone who is willing to listen and there are a lot more people than you think 🙂 and remember local politics matter.
You were gorgeous in the 90s wow
i wonder if theire is some oddball conservativ ish kinda guy saying " we better legalise gay marriage so these queer folk can stop sinning by having pre marital sex!"
I lived in California during prop 8. I was too young to vote and didn't even know i was queer but I remember my happiness over Obama being elected was soured by 8 getting passed.
I am just going to put this out there when I was young 9 10 years old I made it very clear I wasn't ever going to get married until anybody could get married
Meaning gay marriage
And while that is slowly becomes an actual possibility
I find myself wondering about poly relationships
I have a friend who identifies as a gay man but has a wife and child
So how this came to be was basically what you'd expect hiding in the closet and establishing a normal quote-unquote normal relationship and eventually having a kid and then coming out more or less
Only he was out and married legally his best friend whom he has occasional intimacy with and they have a child
Where this gets complicated is that she has a boyfriend (who is straight) he and she have a boyfriend who they call their husband who is definitely bi. He has girlfriends… and did when I met them and she had another boyfriend.
A man who was helping my friend with his air conditioning and sub pump etc.
So we have a polycule
Right okay
But only the husband wife child dynamic Counts in court?!?
So the 2nd man who has been a dad for that kids entire life has no rights
And anyone he dates or they date has any standing???
Aside from mabey as a roommate
So now I am confused on what marriage is what it means and what is the actual point …
Not that I have one
Long comments help the videos engagement
My ad on this video was a Trump campaign. Yikes.
Because apparently a book is more important than human rights
Love your channel!
If Trump gets another SC choice it will be the end of gay marriage.
because marriage is dead anyway
I am so surprised support is only 60% – I would have thought it was more like 80% – 90%. The only people I know who don’t want marriage equality is older or really zealot religious people
I think it was science. Once we realize the Bible is inaccurate on creation and evolution becomes acceptable. Then we realized people were not being deviants when attracted to the same sex but their are scientific reasons, then we realize we can’t force others into our personal beliefs.
I think there has a lot to do with homosexuality being openly recognized in public as millennial were growing up that it became a normal thing to see. When the oldest bunch of millennialist were becoming adults more socially liberal views were being brought in. Also the connectivity of groups across the internet means that you can have a more closely connected and open gay community across the country with stuff like YouTube, Twitter, Facebook, tumblr and reddit allowing for close connections based on common interests.
Cool I guess love just works, huh?
Matt you look better now then you looked like a Harry potter understudy
I doubt any divorce lawyer is against same sex marriage.
When I was in middle school we had a politician come to our school to speak with our classes (essentially to low key campaign under the guise of education.)
He was holding a Q&A about his running stand points, and people were asking about his positions about the topic. For reference, this took place right around the vote on prop 8, a little before (while the topic was still fresh) if I remember correctly.
When I was called on to ask something I said, "I have a question regarding a hot topic at the moment. Although it's not a bill on the ballot in our state, I'm curious to know what your stand point would be if something like prop 8 we're proposed in [My State]."
He became very scattered, dismissed my question entirely saying that prop 8 was an issue in California and wasn't on topic, and talked over me calling on someone else before I could defend the question.
After the Q&A when I was leaving the room I walked up to him and told him he was being derisive by not answering the question I'd asked during the session. He played dumb and pretended he didn't remember the question, and that he was so busy he couldn't be blamed for not answering every question.
When I reminded him the question was regarding the hypothetical of an initiative like prop 8 in our state, he shook me off. He said something along the lines of you don't always get what you want kid, just move on.
I couldn't move on, and so I told him even if he chooses to ignore the issue, that doesn't make it any less real, and that his silence speaks volumes.
The following two years after prop 8 my state actually became a huge forerunner in the marriage equality fight, and I'm very proud that we aren't all so ignorant.
This whole "It's not natural" argument. Where does it come from exactly? Let's assume for a second the homosexuality IS unnatural. Well, so is wearing clothing, driving a car, and watching videos on youtube. Yet, no one thinks those are somehow inherently wrong simply because they're unnatural. Obviously, believing homosexuality is wrong because "it's unnatural" is fundamentally flawed. Yet when I explain this to people who think like this they can't explain what makes it wrong.
Also, please note that I don't think it IS unnatural. I'm just assuming it is to illustrate a point. As far as I'm concerned it's "as natural" as any other orientation.
Watching this and then noticing the insane timing of it: Published June 25th 2015… June 26th 2015 – Held their 5-4 decision that the 14th amendment requires all states to grant same-sex marriages and recognize same-sex marriages granted in other states.
I'm a Libertarian. You know the group that the Regressive Left claims is 'AltRight more or less'? We have been for marriage equality as a group for over 60 years. Waaaaay before the Democrats in the US etc. The government has no place legislating against love between consenting adults.
I remember prop 8 I was a kid in California with 2 very conservative parents. And I distinctly remember wondering what in the world could be different about a gay marriage is a "normal" one. And as much as my parents tried they just couldn't explain it to me. Honestly I think that was one of my first moments of doubting my parents views. If they couldn't explain this very important simple thing to me and why it was wrong what else had I just accepted as true.
Something missing from the discussion: the introduction of LGBT characters in mainstream television and movies had an enormous impact on the general society seeing us as humans – living, breathing, loving, and hurting … and actually deserving the same rights that non-queers take for granted.
The greatest irony of the whole thing is that the heteros have seriously messed up the "sanctity of marriage" with all their changing partners and screwing around (Not to mention messing with kid's heads). But, ohhhhhhh, that's perfectly okay with the people against gay marriage! The ultimate hypocrisy…………and nobody should ever be deciding what is right and what is wrong in other people's relationships! We live in such a screwed up, ridiculous world.
Michelle Bachmann – the Queen of kook!!!!
I am really glad that you highlighted the backlash, rather than referring to it as just a thing that happened. Obviously, at some point, action had to be taken. I am referring to not waiting for that certain sweet spot of LGBT acceptance in the culture. I appreciate the efforts made by many to make this happen, in spite of the risk. Peace and Love.
I regret to say it, but I had a conservative and religious upbringing, and the thing that shifted my thinking on the LGBT marriage issue was when George Takei came out , and started lending his voice to the issue as a response to Prop 8 in California.
I know Cakeshop didn't have a ruling when this video came out, but Kennedy made it very clear in his statement that not having to make a cake that makes a political/moral statement does not mean that you can discriminate against same-sex people or couples with your service. Basically you don't have to make a gay wedding cake, but you do have to fulfill their order if you would do that same order for another paying customer.
Ginburg's dissent acknowledged that he's coming from the side of anti-discrimination, but claimed that it still counted as discrimination because they wanted a wedding cake, not a "gay wedding" cake, and that was one of the bakery's services (unlike a cake that had an anti-gay statement and bible verse on it, which it had been ruled earlier by the appeal court that the baker did not have to make it).
I don't understand why anyone wants to get married, but well…
Also, if a government can add rights to one group without restricting anothers why wouldn't it do so?
From the 1970s to the 2010s, the median Age in the US was increasing at a rate of about two years per decade. It's currently only about half that rate. I think that plays a small role as well.
So wonderful, thank God I was born gay
Visibility has always been the greatest ally and champion of gays.
I don't support gay marriage not because I'm homophobic but because I don't support marriage in general
In my opinion the video is too strongly focused on the situation in the US. Certain European countries legalized gay marriage around the same time. The Netherlands in 2001, Belgium in 2003, Spain in 2005. I could imagine that these events also gave hope to activists in the US beyond the regulations of single states. So I think the roots of this social change lies much deeper than the video talks about.
Children come to view their parent's religion as not worth the bother.
It moved so fast because of the Internet.
There is one huge elephant in the room that is not addressed in this video – George W Bush.
Supporting SSM was a way of opposing George Bush and the Republicans – Republicans were, almost en masse (I can't think of a single Republican politician who supports SSM, but there might have been one somewhere), opposed to SSM. So SSM activists smartly placed SSM in the anti-Republican movement, where opposing the war in Iraq and the War on Terror and the Republicans in general meant supporting SSM. It was a topic that was already building – you showed a clip of Will and Grace from 2000, and my own young adulthood in the 1990's showed a majority of the college educated folk were at the very least not opposed to homosexuality (acceptance wasn't high, but outright opposition dropped in the 90's). A vast majority of us were thinking "Why does this matter? Let them marry, doesn't do anything to hurt me."
But if Al Gore had been President? There probably wouldn't have been a great push for SSM as it took until the 2010's for a majority of Democrats to be willing to support SSM. Obama is infamous for having his views on SSM "evolve" after he got into office… and public support became pro-SSM instead of anti-SSM. Without the definite and ever-present need to oppose the GOP, many of us might have decided SSM was something we could give away in negotiations. "Well, the GOP want X and Y, we want Q and SSM, we really don't want Y and the GOP really doesn't want SSM. So how about we offer to drop SSM if they drop Y?" "Yeah, okay, that works. We'll support Q, you support X, we'll drop U, you drop SSM, and we pass this bill. All good?" "All good – flip you for who pays for drinks tonight!"
The celerity with which social attitudes have changed on this issue gives a very interesting insight into group psychology. After all, the time when homosexuality was tied with mortifying shame, not just for the person in question but for family and associates as well, is still in living memory. By the '90s we had reached the "not that there's anything wrong with it" stage, but issues like marriage and adoption lagged behind. At this point, though, those issues could be openly debated, but the majority opinion got to claim the moral high ground and counter pro-gay arguments with thinly-veiled sneers. Those advocating gay rights had to tread softly and reason with a calm voice. Now, however, the majority opinion is for gay rights to marry, and this majority now gets to claim the moral high ground – and anyone who still clings to the old ways are treated with open contempt and hostility. Like it's suddenly unthinkable, now, that people could ever have been opposed to gay marriage. Yet they forget that most of their allies were opposed, just a short while ago. So they should know how it is possible to argue against gay rights. But the moral high ground does something to people – with it comes the risk of turning into malicious assholes.
Interracial marriage was illegal in Aus? Learn something new about my country every day.
This was posted the day before Gays could marry anywhere in the US.
Hey gay bros and gals, just saying fuck Trump and his Nazis in 2018. Gay folks are da best. Sincerely, a straight midwestern male who didn't fall for the propaganda xd
At 1:18, please someone clarify for me on which side of the debate is the cast of Will & Grace stands….
I know this video is super old, but your comments about how public opinion changed after the ads changed to emphasis family reminds me of your video on all in the family, where the audience, and edith, came around to accepting her cousin's lover as family because she mentioned marriage, and being a family.
Homosexuality has been there since evolution and dey say it's unnatural!
There’s no point in marriage whether you’re straight or bent, financial entanglement is all it offers.
Don't let the government get involved in your business
Closed minded homophobes: Gay is bad.
Also closed minded homophobes: goes to adult video store and looks for “two lesbians lesbianing”
–
–
Closed minded homophobes: I don’t want gay couples on tv because I don’t want my son to think he can be gay
Me, an open minded straight person that thinks it’s none of my fucking business: * with sarcasm* yeah and I don’t want black people on tv cause I don’t want my kids to think they can be black.
Closed minded homophobes: but black people are born black, they have no choice.
Me again: Yes exactly, so why do you think tv will “turn your kids gay”?
–
–
Closed minded homophobe: Homosexuality is unatural.
Me: But they have no choice and it is a lifestyle decided by fate. So it is natural.
~
~
~
Just a couple of counter arguments for those closed minded assholes who think they matter in the desires of other people. Listen up idiots. No one gives a shit about you, so go home to your mothers basement and be an asshole some more, and we can just mind ourselves, and be modern, non nosy, civilized people.
Btw: for those people who are all it’s a sin to the Christ. Well then let’s hope assholism isn’t a sin because you’d never leave hell.
prop 8 was the first time I became active in the community, I remember some lady chasing me down the street because I took her "Yes on prop 8" sign lol Hey I was 17 what can I say. Since then the organizing bug bit me hard and I haven't looked back kids its super important to remain active in your communities some people don't know what's going on and while you shouldn't rush someone with facts you should be open to educating someone who is willing to listen and there are a lot more people than you think 🙂 and remember local politics matter.
You were gorgeous in the 90s wow
i wonder if theire is some oddball conservativ ish kinda guy saying " we better legalise gay marriage so these queer folk can stop sinning by having pre marital sex!"
I lived in California during prop 8. I was too young to vote and didn't even know i was queer but I remember my happiness over Obama being elected was soured by 8 getting passed.
I am just going to put this out there when I was young 9 10 years old I made it very clear I wasn't ever going to get married until anybody could get married
Meaning gay marriage
And while that is slowly becomes an actual possibility
I find myself wondering about poly relationships
I have a friend who identifies as a gay man but has a wife and child
So how this came to be was basically what you'd expect hiding in the closet and establishing a normal quote-unquote normal relationship and eventually having a kid and then coming out more or less
Only he was out and married legally his best friend whom he has occasional intimacy with and they have a child
Where this gets complicated is that she has a boyfriend (who is straight) he and she have a boyfriend who they call their husband who is definitely bi. He has girlfriends… and did when I met them and she had another boyfriend.
A man who was helping my friend with his air conditioning and sub pump etc.
So we have a polycule
Right okay
But only the husband wife child dynamic Counts in court?!?
So the 2nd man who has been a dad for that kids entire life has no rights
And anyone he dates or they date has any standing???
Aside from mabey as a roommate
So now I am confused on what marriage is what it means and what is the actual point …
Not that I have one
Long comments help the videos engagement
My ad on this video was a Trump campaign. Yikes.
Because apparently a book is more important than human rights
Love your channel!
If Trump gets another SC choice it will be the end of gay marriage.
because marriage is dead anyway
I am so surprised support is only 60% – I would have thought it was more like 80% – 90%.
The only people I know who don’t want marriage equality is older or really zealot religious people
I think it was science. Once we realize the Bible is inaccurate on creation and evolution becomes acceptable. Then we realized people were not being deviants when attracted to the same sex but their are scientific reasons, then we realize we can’t force others into our personal beliefs.
I think there has a lot to do with homosexuality being openly recognized in public as millennial were growing up that it became a normal thing to see. When the oldest bunch of millennialist were becoming adults more socially liberal views were being brought in. Also the connectivity of groups across the internet means that you can have a more closely connected and open gay community across the country with stuff like YouTube, Twitter, Facebook, tumblr and reddit allowing for close connections based on common interests.
Cool
I guess love just works, huh?
Matt you look better now then you looked like a Harry potter understudy
I doubt any divorce lawyer is against same sex marriage.
When I was in middle school we had a politician come to our school to speak with our classes (essentially to low key campaign under the guise of education.)
He was holding a Q&A about his running stand points, and people were asking about his positions about the topic. For reference, this took place right around the vote on prop 8, a little before (while the topic was still fresh) if I remember correctly.
When I was called on to ask something I said, "I have a question regarding a hot topic at the moment. Although it's not a bill on the ballot in our state, I'm curious to know what your stand point would be if something like prop 8 we're proposed in [My State]."
He became very scattered, dismissed my question entirely saying that prop 8 was an issue in California and wasn't on topic, and talked over me calling on someone else before I could defend the question.
After the Q&A when I was leaving the room I walked up to him and told him he was being derisive by not answering the question I'd asked during the session. He played dumb and pretended he didn't remember the question, and that he was so busy he couldn't be blamed for not answering every question.
When I reminded him the question was regarding the hypothetical of an initiative like prop 8 in our state, he shook me off. He said something along the lines of you don't always get what you want kid, just move on.
I couldn't move on, and so I told him even if he chooses to ignore the issue, that doesn't make it any less real, and that his silence speaks volumes.
The following two years after prop 8 my state actually became a huge forerunner in the marriage equality fight, and I'm very proud that we aren't all so ignorant.
This whole "It's not natural" argument. Where does it come from exactly? Let's assume for a second the homosexuality IS unnatural. Well, so is wearing clothing, driving a car, and watching videos on youtube. Yet, no one thinks those are somehow inherently wrong simply because they're unnatural. Obviously, believing homosexuality is wrong because "it's unnatural" is fundamentally flawed. Yet when I explain this to people who think like this they can't explain what makes it wrong.
Also, please note that I don't think it IS unnatural. I'm just assuming it is to illustrate a point. As far as I'm concerned it's "as natural" as any other orientation.
Watching this and then noticing the insane timing of it: Published June 25th 2015…
June 26th 2015 – Held their 5-4 decision that the 14th amendment requires all states to grant same-sex marriages and recognize same-sex marriages granted in other states.
I'm a Libertarian. You know the group that the Regressive Left claims is 'AltRight more or less'? We have been for marriage equality as a group for over 60 years. Waaaaay before the Democrats in the US etc. The government has no place legislating against love between consenting adults.
I remember prop 8 I was a kid in California with 2 very conservative parents. And I distinctly remember wondering what in the world could be different about a gay marriage is a "normal" one. And as much as my parents tried they just couldn't explain it to me.
Honestly I think that was one of my first moments of doubting my parents views. If they couldn't explain this very important simple thing to me and why it was wrong what else had I just accepted as true.
Something missing from the discussion: the introduction of LGBT characters in mainstream television and movies had an enormous impact on the general society seeing us as humans – living, breathing, loving, and hurting … and actually deserving the same rights that non-queers take for granted.
The greatest irony of the whole thing is that the heteros have seriously messed up the "sanctity of marriage" with all their changing partners and screwing around (Not to mention messing with kid's heads). But, ohhhhhhh, that's perfectly okay with the people against gay marriage! The ultimate hypocrisy…………and nobody should ever be deciding what is right and what is wrong in other people's relationships! We live in such a screwed up, ridiculous world.
Michelle Bachmann – the Queen of kook!!!!
I am really glad that you highlighted the backlash, rather than referring to it as just a thing that happened. Obviously, at some point, action had to be taken. I am referring to not waiting for that certain sweet spot of LGBT acceptance in the culture. I appreciate the efforts made by many to make this happen, in spite of the risk. Peace and Love.